This List and The System Dynamics Society

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"Jim Hines"
Senior Member
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 3:39 am

This List and The System Dynamics Society

Post by "Jim Hines" »

As Geoff Coyle says, we owe Bob Eberlein many, many thanks for this
discussion list. To correct any misunderstanding, The System Dynamics
Society has never had a role in the list. Any confusion probably
results from the fact that many members of the Society are valuable
contributors to this list -- Geoff Coyle being among the prime examples.
The Society itself, though, cant take any credit.

Even if the Society cant take credit here, its still a very good group
of folks. And, Geoff made the nice suggestion that people who use the
list as discussants might want to join the society, if they havent
already. To anyone who takes Geoff up on his invitation: The society
will welcome you enthusiastically.

Again, thank you, Bob. This list reflects your generosity and
efficiency.


Regards,
Jim Hines
President
System Dynamics Society
system.dynamics@albany.edu
http://www.albany.edu/cpr/sds/.
From: "Jim Hines" <jhines@MIT.EDU>
John Sterman
Senior Member
Posts: 117
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 3:39 am

This List and The System Dynamics Society

Post by John Sterman »

Im distressed by and grateful to Niall Palfreyman for his post.
Distressed that Niall doesnt feel welcome on this list; grateful to
him for having the courage to say so. So Niall, thank you.

One of the main goals of system dynamics is to expand the boundaries
of our mental models, breaking down the illusory lines that create
barriers between people and points of view. Systems get into trouble
when people view the world through narrow filters; we try to break
down the barriers between different groups--between marketing and
engineering, between environmentalists and industry, between US and
THEM, whoever WE and THEY are.

So its especially distressing to hear someone say he feels there is
an IN and OUT group on the list. Creating barriers and alienating
people with sincere interest in learning, even inadvertently, isnt
the way systems thinkers are supposed to behave. And, of course,
its counterproductive.

Theres a famous cartoon from the New Yorker magazine showing a dog
surfing the web, and saying to another pet, "On the internet, no one
can tell youre a dog." On this list, no one can tell whether you
are a member of the system dynamics society or not, whether you have
a PhD or dropped out of high school. And it doesnt matter a bit.
What counts is whether you want to learn, or have something to
contribute--and whether you treat others on the list with respect.

Respect is not incompatible with spirited and passionate debate.
Covering up disagreement is more disrespectful, since it is rooted in
an underlying belief that people arent interested in mutual learning
or dont have the maturity to accept criticism. Respect does mean
listening carefully to what people say and providing the most
constructive replies we can without sarcasm or condescension.

For myself, I would welcome all to this list who care about learning
more about system dynamics, whether they are members of the society
or not, whether they attend the conferences or not, whether they
contribute to the list or simply listen in. So Niall, I hope you
stay on the list, and thanks again for your important message.

John Sterman
From: John Sterman <jsterman@MIT.EDU>
"John Gunkler"
Member
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 3:39 am

This List and The System Dynamics Society

Post by "John Gunkler" »

I want to try to respond directly to Niall (and, by implication, to all
those who may feel similar things.) Niall, I very much appreciate your
courage and candor. My response has two quite different parts.

First, ironically, as I have read the messages in this list over the
past couple of years, Ive always thought of you as being part of the
"in" group! (that is, when I thought about in/out groups at all, which
isnt much.) But I have to say, also, that of the several lists I have
participated in, this one has always seemed less prone to exclusion than
any other. I have never got the impression that you have -- that anyone
was being dismissed or brushed off.

Second, maybe you should examine the source(s) of your feelings of being
brushed off. Often, how we feel about things is reflective more of how
we expect to feel than of what actually happens. If I expect to be
treated as a person without anything important to say, no matter how you
respond I can find a way to interpret the response as being a brush off.
I was once taught this lesson by way of a vivid example. Imagine three
people sitting in the same room. Into this room is brought a live, large
snake. One personleaps from his chair and runs, screaming in fear, from
the room. One person stays seated in his chair and looks on with
indifference. One person immediately leaps from his chair and runs, with
a joyful expression, to touch and handle the snake. All three people are
likely to say that the appearance of the snake "caused" their reaction.
But how can this be the whole story when the reactions were so different
while the "cause" was exactly the same?

A fuller explanation would be that the appearance of the snake, in
combination with each persons "mental model," resulted in the observed
behaviors.

What my point? Simply a suggestion: Expect your fellow list members
to respect your input (I know Im always interested to read your
thoughts), expect to be treated like anyone else who contributes to the
list, expect some people to be more interested than others in what you
have to say, expect some people to react positively to your
contributions, some to react negatively, and some not to react at all.
And, when you read others responses, please understand that no one (I
suspect) has enough time to write as carefully as we would wish -- yet
many of us want to respond in some way; so we may often write hurriedly,
and sometimes without much sensitivity, but always with a desire to
further the dialogue and mutually learn from each other.

Is this helpful advice? I certainly hope you will continue to
contribute.

John W. Gunkler
jgunkler@sprintmail.com
"Jim Hines"
Senior Member
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 3:39 am

This List and The System Dynamics Society

Post by "Jim Hines" »

Nail mentions a feeling that his comments have not always matched what
was expected and feeling that there is something exclusionary about the
list.

A couple of people have already mentioned the PC view that no one should
be feel excluded. (Note: Just because its politically correct doesnt
mean its not correct!). But what about this matching of whats
expected?

First (in the PC vein), theres nothing wrong and often a lot right
about challenging whats expected. Even if it doesnt change minds, it
can cause folks to think harder about things they take for granted. (I
think this paragraph applies to Niall).

Second (and less PC and less about Niall) theres another aspect to
feeling like one is not matching whats expected -- and thats the
feeling that one is speaking a slightly different language. This
discussion serves people by exposing them to the orientation of folks
like Jay Forrester, George Richardson, Bob Eberlein and many others who
have been in the field for a long time. I think a lot about SD is
gleaned through listening to how "acculturated" folks talk about it and
is reinforced by speaking to others in the same "language".

Up until recently this meant taking a live class, and unfortunately
there are only a handful of places around the world where you can do
that. This list gives people everywhere an opportunity to hear and to
speak the language of SD.

IMHO, the amount left to discover in our field is many times what we
currently know. So, Im **not** saying that folks should just fill
their brains up with words from the "old timers". I am saying that
people will move forward more rapidly and, maybe, in a fruitful
direction if they do it while "speaking" SD.

Jim Hines
MIT
From: "Jim Hines" <jhines@MIT.EDU>
Alexander Leus
Junior Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 3:39 am

This List and The System Dynamics Society

Post by Alexander Leus »

John I really appreciated your snake story analogy. I find that my
reactions to different situations surely falls into this category, and
embarrassing to say I am 59 years old, retired and should know better.

I am not a member of SD and probably wont be, but I really enjoy the
dialog that takes place and hopefully I may offer something to help
others.

Sincerely,
Alex Leus
From: Alexander Leus <leusa@tds.net>
Niall Palfreyman
Senior Member
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 3:39 am

This List and The System Dynamics Society

Post by Niall Palfreyman »

I find it hard to express my feelings about this thread. Probably the
simplest is that I just feel cross. Ive been an excited bystander to
this list for about 3 years now, and for a time I joined the SD Society.
Unfortunately I found the content of the journal too management-oriented
to be of much interest or use to me, so I lapsed my membership. I cant
say that my SD skills are particularly well-developed, but I enjoy
admiring the way all of you are using SD in so many imaginative ways.

On occasion Ive asked a question, and received many interesting and
useful replies, but each time there has been at least one reply which
felt (to me) like an impatient brush-off. On occasion I have even tried
to join in a discussion, and then got the impression that what I had to
say didnt seem to match what was expected. OK, I can accept that, but
after three years I find Im losing the will to try to enter
discussions.

I very much enjoy being a part of this list and listening to the
discussions. I think all of you are doing a very grand and important
job. _And_ I find it difficult to shake the feeling that there is
something nigglingly exclusive about the list. I just dont feel
welcome.

I realise that this mail is somewhat less objective than the norm, and I
will understand, Bob, if you decide its too "flamey" to post. But given
the tone of this thread I thought it possibly useful to provide some
feedback on my own personal perception of the list as a relative
layperson, since this may possibly match the experience of others. And I
cant believe that the aim of the list can be to raise these feelings of
exclusion in a significant number of participants.

However, I can live with the possibility that this is all just my
paranoia, rearing its irritating head again. If thats the case, I offer
my apologies for rocking the boat. :-)

Best wishes all round,
Niall Palfreyman.
From: Niall Palfreyman <
niall.palfreyman@fh-weihenstephan.de>
zenabraham@aol.com
Junior Member
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 3:39 am

This List and The System Dynamics Society

Post by zenabraham@aol.com »

Hello,

No. Its not a paranoia you are operating from, its a very sensitive
observation and opens the door for some frank talk.

On National Public Radio in the US, I heard this report:

"A five-year old beat a financial expert and an astrologist in forecasting
the British Stock market. The financial expert, using computer models and
calculations, realized a 46 percent drop in their portfolio value. The
astrologer, using planetary alignments as a guide, had a 6 percent drop. The
five-year old had a 13 percent increase."

My point is that it seems to me that some people rely too much on "scientific
analysis" of social phenomena, or "what people do, or are going to do" rather
than an understanding of the system of what they do, knowing that predicting
any one outcome is still just a guess.

Its better to understand the range of outcomes; the five-year old does
because kids have an intuitive feel for the "system of people," including the
BS that surrounds much of what we do. Thats why theyre so honest. I think
this is why the five year old won.

The idea of SD, in my personal view SHOULD be to open us to understanding,
and admit that we dont understand, the many unconventional patterns that
exist in society. To put it bluntly, we must learn to embrace
unpredictability. SD, to me, is a PLANNING tool, not a prediction tool. Its
design helps us to make better plans.

Unfortunately, the "prediction" ethic, which calls for regression analysis,
and other tools generally used to establish causality, are presented as being
more desirable to employ than SD.

I state that this is a mistake: SD can incorporate those tools in the
development of a model, but to attempt, even unconsciously, to eliminate
simple anecdotal observation and experience in the process, is a large
mistake.

Accepting the participation of many voices (a lot of "mental models") in the
formation of the discussion process here, is part of what SD is about in my
view. If thats not the case, its should be. Our objective should be to
love and desire this complex "noise" of ideas and observations around how the
world works, happily marching along because were confident that our SD
talent permits us to comfortably work with this complexity.

To the extent that you feel excluded, we are not treating you well, and
harming what in my view should be the overall social direction of SD:
inclusion.

Thank you.

Zennie Abraham
Oakland, CA
From: zenabraham@aol.com
"Rahul Lanjewar"
Newbie
Posts: 1
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 3:39 am

This List and The System Dynamics Society

Post by "Rahul Lanjewar" »

Hi!
I was going through this thread of conversation and found it interesting
and distressing in parts, interesting because it has spurned of a lot of
insightful debate.
I am a newcomer to the SD world and I have been doing some of it for the
past 2 years. I am not a member of the SD society. However, for me,
being on the list helped immensely. The conversations here and the
discussions on the various aspects of SD itself have helped me increase
my understanding of SD.
I am form India where SD is not heard of. In terms of educational
institutes offering courses on SD, there are only a couple of good
institutes who offer an SD course in the form of a 3 month elective. So
for me, learning SD was a do-it-yourself approach. And the introduction
to SD happened in my current job where we were trying to explore the
possibility of using iThink to build and enterprise simulation model. We
have given up this big bang approach to model building and decided to
firm up our theoretical understanding and then proceed. Here, I looked
to the Sdlist as a constant source of knowledge, examples, etc. The
thought of having the list restricted to only the society members was,
hence, very distressing. I am sure there are quite a few other people
who are like and look to the list for education.

I am in the Corporate Planning dept. of Infosys, a leading consulting
and IT services company in India. We are now trying to set up a practice
area or focus area within our department, on System Dynamics. Our
objective is to ensure that the field of SD is gainfully leveraged for
business benefits, within the company. However, we are kind of in the
dark in knowing if this has been done in any organization successfully.
For this we are now seeking membership to the society, with the hope
that this might help us in this regards. However, any pointers or
comments how you have been able to do this in your own organization, the
benefits, the risks and the pitfalls, are deeply appreciated.

Best Regards,
Rahul
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------
Rahul Lanjewar
Senior Analyst - Corporate Planning
Infosys Technologies Limited,
Hosur Road, Bangalore, India - 561 229
From: "Rahul Lanjewar" <
lrahul@infy.com>
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