QUERY Shifting the Burden CLD Quandry

""Gene"" <gene@thefirstdiscip
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QUERY Shifting the Burden CLD Quandry

Postby ""Gene"" <gene@thefirstdiscip » Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:50 am

Posted by ""Gene"" <gene@thefirstdiscipline.org>

I=92ve been working with the Shifting the Burden system archetype and thi=
nk
I=92ve run into a workaround for a shortcoming of the typical CLD for thi=
s
structure. I would be most appreciative if a few interested parties might
take a look at the web page at the link below and let me know if I=92m ma=
king
any sense, or was I up too late and took a left turn at Albuquerque.

http://www.thefirstdiscipline.org/index.html#-33

be well,
Gene Bellinger
Posted by ""Gene"" <gene@thefirstdiscipline.org>
posting date Fri, 2 Jan 2009 00:39:01 -0500

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Jean-Jacques Laubl=E9 <jean-j
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Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 3:39 am

QUERY Shifting the Burden CLD Quandry

Postby Jean-Jacques Laubl=E9 <jean-j » Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:59 am

Posted by Jean-Jacques Laubl=E9 <jean-jacques.lauble@estvideo.fr>

Hi

There must be probably many point of views to address that sort of proble=
m.
See an example on the Vensim forum; system dynamics forum at:
http://ventanasystems.co.uk/forum/
Regards.
Jean-Jacques Laubl=E9 Eurli Allocar Strasbourg France
Posted by Jean-Jacques Laubl=E9 <jean-jacques.lauble@estvideo.fr>
posting date Fri, 2 Jan 2009 17:12:29 +0100

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""Gene"" <gene@thefirstdiscip
Junior Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 3:39 am

QUERY Shifting the Burden CLD Quandry

Postby ""Gene"" <gene@thefirstdiscip » Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:59 am

Posted by ""Gene"" <gene@thefirstdiscipline.org>

My apologies to those who looked and were not able to view the graphics in
the following URL. I think I have solved the problem. Many thanks for the
feedback.

http://www.thefirstdiscipline.org/index.html#-33

be well,
Gene Bellinger
Posted by ""Gene"" <gene@thefirstdiscipline.org>
posting date Fri, 2 Jan 2009 17:03:32 -0500
_______________________________________________

""John Voyer"" <voyer@usm.mai
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Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 3:39 am

QUERY Shifting the Burden CLD Quandry

Postby ""John Voyer"" <voyer@usm.mai » Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:59 am

Posted by ""John Voyer"" <voyer@usm.maine.edu>

Gene,

I found your web pages very interesting. My only issue with what you did with
the Shifting the Burden archetype came at the very end, when you said the
following:

With this structure the effective strategy of implementing the symptomatic
solution AND the fundamental solution simultaneous would seem to make even more
sense as the symptomatic solution removes the problem symptom and the
fundamental
solution would remove the problem cause. It doesn't seem that it would really
make a lot of sense to remove the problem cause and leave the problem symptom.

The problem with this statement, I think, is that the fundamental solution does
remove the problem symptom, since it removes the problem cause. It just takes
longer.

I think that the key prescription of this archetype--that people should avoid
symptomatic solutions--still applies with your re-done version of it. I would
worry that simultaneous application of the symptomatic solution and the
fundamental solution would discourage continuation of the fundamental solution
as
the symptom seemed to go away. It's hard enough getting people to commit to a
fundamental solution (which takes time to have an effect) without undercutting
it
with a quick fix that makes their resolve waver.

Best regards for the new year,
John Voyer

----------------------------------------------------------

John J. Voyer, Ph.D.
Associate Dean for Academic Affairs and Accreditation
and Professor of Business Administration
School of Business
University of Southern Maine
Posted by ""John Voyer"" <voyer@usm.maine.edu>
posting date Fri, 02 Jan 2009 08:03:07 -0500
_______________________________________________

""Jim Thompson"" <james.thomp
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QUERY Shifting the Burden CLD Quandry

Postby ""Jim Thompson"" <james.thomp » Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:20 am

Posted by ""Jim Thompson"" <james.thompson@strath.ac.uk>

Frequently, part of the =91fundamental solution=92 requires stopping the
=91symptomatic
solution=92 in order for the fundamental solution to gain traction. Some =
concrete
examples drawn from observable situations would be most helpful in cleari=
ng up
that sort of conflict. Is there a real world case to support the hypothes=
is? Are
there many cases that fit the model you propose?

Jim Thompson
Posted by ""Jim Thompson"" <james.thompson@strath.ac.uk>
posting date Sat, 3 Jan 2009 09:07:53 -0500

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""John Gunkler"" <johngunkler
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QUERY Shifting the Burden CLD Quandry

Postby ""John Gunkler"" <johngunkler » Tue Jan 06, 2009 7:27 am

Posted by ""John Gunkler"" <johngunkler@comcast.net>

I'm willing to stand corrected on this by the community, but it seems to me
that there are practical occasions when one must perform immediate,
short-term actions (getting rid of the worst of the symptoms) as well as
long-term fundamental solutions.

In fact, we in the U.S. may be at just such a point with our economic
problems right now.

Granted, getting support for fundamental solutions is usually (always?) more
difficult when symptoms go away -- but isn't that why one should, if being
responsible, implement (and fully fund) both kinds of solutions at once?

John Gunkler
Posted by ""John Gunkler"" <johngunkler@comcast.net>
posting date Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:52:17 -0500
_______________________________________________

""Balaporia, Zahir"" <Balapor
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Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 3:39 am

QUERY Shifting the Burden CLD Quandry

Postby ""Balaporia, Zahir"" <Balapor » Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:34 am

Posted by ""Balaporia, Zahir"" <BalaporiaZ@schneider.com>

> Posted by ""John Gunkler"" <johngunkler@comcast.net>
>
> I'm willing to stand corrected on this by the community, but it seems to me
> that there are practical occasions when one must perform immediate,
> short-term actions (getting rid of the worst of the symptoms) as well as
> long-term fundamental solutions.

Long term fundamental solution
""Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach him how to fish and he
will
eat for a lifetime."" (Chinese Proverb)

Necessary short term actions
""Swami Vivekananda once said, 'It's a sin to preach religion to a starving
man.' Give him something to eat and drink first, and then give him the gift of
the Dharma."" (from What is the Dharma? By Sangharakshita)

I assume Swami Vivekananda was vegetarian, but I think he would agree in
principle that it is also a sin to try to teach a starving man how to fish. I
say feed him first then teach him how to fish, lest he die while you search for
your tackle box.

In extreme cases you can't avoid the short term fix. NOW, whether the current
economic issues qualify as a ""starving man"" is still up for debate in my mind.

Regards.
Zahir.
Posted by ""Balaporia, Zahir"" <BalaporiaZ@schneider.com>
posting date Tue, 6 Jan 2009 23:56:39 -0600
_______________________________________________

Bob Powell <scuba@usa.net>
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Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 3:39 am

QUERY Shifting the Burden CLD Quandry

Postby Bob Powell <scuba@usa.net> » Wed Jan 07, 2009 8:34 am

Posted by Bob Powell <scuba@usa.net>

At 04:27 AM 1/6/2009, ""John Gunkler"" <johngunkler@comcast.net> wrote:

""I'm willing to stand corrected on this by the community, but it seems to me
that there are practical occasions when one must perform immediate,
short-term actions (getting rid of the worst of the symptoms) as well as
long-term fundamental solutions.""

This is correct. To get out of addiction we must do what we can about the
symptoms (e.g., Antabuse for alcohol) and work on the long-term fundamental
solutions (stop drinking). Unfortunately, we often don't properly identify the
needed fundamental solutions or we neglect them when we do manage to correctly
identify them.

All too often we do exactly the opposite of what should be done ... the ""hair of
the dog that bit me"" comes to mind.

I've studied the problem of addiction and call it The Crisis Syndrome. At the
link find a series of papers on personal and organizational addiction to crisis
and the ""quick fix.""

Bob Powell
Colorado Springs, CO
Posted by Bob Powell <scuba@usa.net>
posting date Tue, 06 Jan 2009 12:58:48 -0700
_______________________________________________

Bob Powell <scuba@usa.net>
Junior Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 3:39 am

QUERY Shifting the Burden CLD Quandry

Postby Bob Powell <scuba@usa.net> » Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:20 am

Posted by Bob Powell <scuba@usa.net>

Sorry, I didn't realize the mailing list strips out embedded links. It's
explicitly included below.

At 04:27 AM 1/6/2009, ""John Gunkler"" <johngunkler@comcast.net> wrote:

""I'm willing to stand corrected on this by the community, but it seems to me
that there are practical occasions when one must perform immediate,
short-term actions (getting rid of the worst of the symptoms) as well as
long-term fundamental solutions.""

This is correct. To get out of addiction we must do what we can about the
symptoms (e.g., Antabuse for alcohol) and work on the long-term fundamental
solutions (stop drinking). Unfortunately, we often don't properly identify the
needed fundamental solutions or we neglect them when we do manage to correctly
identify them.

All too often we do exactly the opposite of what should be done ... the ""hair of
the dog that bit me"" comes to mind.

I've studied the problem of addiction and call it The Crisis Syndrome. At the
link find a series of papers on personal and organizational addiction to crisis
and the ""quick fix.""
http://www.exponentialimprovement.com/cms/crisis.shtml

Bob Powell
Posted by Bob Powell <scuba@usa.net>
posting date Wed, 07 Jan 2009 08:00:44 -0700
_______________________________________________

""Douglas J Franco"" <dfranco
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Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 3:39 am

QUERY Shifting the Burden CLD Quandry

Postby ""Douglas J Franco"" <dfranco » Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:46 am

Posted by ""Douglas J Franco"" <dfranco@cantv.net>

Paulo,

The topic of improving humanitarian operations is quite relevant, the urgency of
the needs usually turns on pervasive causal loops, that undermine the relief
efforts. For instance, in a famine, slowing the delivery of foods improves
results, because people diet and the organism improves metabolism, becoming more
efficient in assimilating foods. This is exactly the reverse case of dieting to
lose weight, which has been widely studied in the SD literature.

The best for you all in the 2009.

Regards

Douglas Franco
Posted by ""Douglas J Franco"" <dfranco@cantv.net>
posting date Thu, 8 Jan 2009 10:52:06 -0430
_______________________________________________

""Paulo Goncalves"" <paulog@M
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Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 3:39 am

QUERY Shifting the Burden CLD Quandry

Postby ""Paulo Goncalves"" <paulog@M » Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:10 am

Posted by ""Paulo Goncalves"" <paulog@MIT.EDU>

Doug,

Thanks for your comment. There are indeed several ways that providing
short-term relief (such as food aid) can undermine long-term development
(solve the entitlement problem of populations afflicted by famines). For
instance, making large quantities of grain available to poorer nations for
free or below market prices, as in non-emergency relief food aid, makes
local farming unprofitable and unsustainable, driving local farmers into
poverty and food prices up, ultimately making local populations more
vulnerable to famines. However, I strongly disagree with the metabolic
example you provided.

To your point, it is well understood that calorie restricted diets extends
life span and retards age-related chronic diseases in a variety of species,
including rats, mice, fish, flies, worms, and yeast. Calorie restriction
also reduces metabolic rate and as you suggest improves the efficiency of
the organism in animals. The mechanisms through which this occurs in animals
are not well understood; for humans, many of these effects are not
scientifically proven, but are often assumed to take place.

To make the leap between metabolic efficiency and the role that it may play
in famines, however, it is important to look more closely at the causes of
famines and its victims. There are two types of famines. Those caused by
lack of food and those caused by lack of purchasing power (what Nobel prize
economist Amartya Sen defines as the entitlement problem). The most
prevalent type of famines are the second one. That is, most people starve
not because food is not available, but because they cannot afford to buy
food.

Among the main causes of famines are conflict, drought (or other
environmental disruptions), and other political, logistical, or economic
disruptions. But most often famines are caused by conflict and drought.
Conflict can cause famines by driving farmers from the land, destroying
stored harvested goods, disrupting market processes all of which create food
shortages that drive prices above families' income. Conflicts can also cause
famines when governments deny access to food to specific populations as a
means to control rebel areas. Droughts have a primary effect of overtaxing
and drying up water supplies causing losses of crops and livestock. In
addition, droughts cause families to search for better grazing lands for its
livestock, migrate to cities, seek jobs or alternative sources of income.

Because famines caused by conflict and drought force famished people to
fight in conflict, migrate to cities and seek jobs they disproportionately
affect young children (between nine months and five years old), pregnant and
nursing women and the elderly. These groups are most vulnerable to famines
because they are the least adaptable to the direct and indirect effects of
drought and conflict, not to mention that their nutritional needs are
higher, and they cannot provide for themselves. For instance, young children
depend on their mothers for survival, women with dependent children cannot
easily leave home to seek work, elderly are not fit for manual labor and may
not survive migration, all of them (young children, pregnant women and
elderly people) make poor soldiers. Slowing the delivery of foods to such
groups would only deteriorate their condition and amplify the disparities.
In fact, because food aid is more likely to be distributed among those that
can earn money or share some of the routine family tasks (fetch water and
wood in far distances), it is common that organizations provide food in
excess of dietary needs precisely with hopes to meet the needs of the most
vulnerable.

But at a more basic level, the food staple of many subsistence societies is
a carbohydrate-rich, protein poor diet, which can lead to protein deficiency
malnutrition and severe physiological imbalances. Starvation also impairs
the immune system, so it is common to find a host of epidemic diseases among
famished populations. And, because disease and malnourishment go together,
it is not only necessary to provide food, taking into consideration the
protein deficiency, but also necessary to provide the appropriate conditions
(e.g., clean water) and medications.

If anything, where famines are concerned, improved results come from
providing more food, more infrastructure, more sanitation, more medication,
more education.

Cheers,
Paulo
Posted by ""Paulo Goncalves"" <paulog@MIT.EDU>
posting date Sat, 10 Jan 2009 01:56:59 -0500
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