Hi Tony!
I would agree that the term sustainability is very poorly agreed upon. The
current issue of Better World Magazine at http://www.betterworld.com is
totally devoted to sustainability. The issue includes an article I wrote on
Sustainability and Corporations. In that article I highlight the need for a
meaningful and standard definition. I would suggest looking at my article,
the other articles in this issue, and the archives of the magazine for more
ideas.
I would agree that SD can be used to explore more practical (and less
esoteric, linguistic definitions of sustainability), but I dont see such
work contributing to a standard vision or definition of sustainability in
the short-to-moderate term.
Good luck with your effort. I would love to know more about what you decide
to do!
Cheers!
Jay Forrest
Pteragenesis
Chaos, Complexity, System Dynamics, Studies of the Future
pteragen@neosoft.com
http://www.neosoft.com/~pteragen
(713)493-5022 (voice) (713)493-6715 (fax)
Sustainability in context
-
ameppem@metz.une.edu.au (Tony Me
- Newbie
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 3:39 am
Sustainability in context
I am a member of the New England (Australia) Ecological Economics Group and
I am researching sustainable regional development. My intention is to model
the problem using the system dynamics / learning organisation framework
described in Morecroft and Stermans edition of Modelling for Learning
Organisations. This research has led me to at least try and get the concept
of sustainability clear for myself so that I can more adequately define the
problem. The Brundtland definition is the most widely accepted meet the
needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations
to meet their own needs. The general acceptance of this definition is
largely due to its vaugeness; get acceptance largely because it means
different things to different people. Will depend on your point of view of
the potential of technological progress and the regenerative capacity of
the environment in addition to views on equity and welfare andother things.
Sustainability is used over a wide range of contexts from sustainable
growth (?) to pristine environments; rather than in the context of a
process which would seem to offer some hope for moving forward in the
debate. The following describes my attempt at articulation:
Sustainability describes a state that is in transition constantly.
* the activity or objective of sustainability is not to win or lose
and the intention is not to arrive at a particular point.
* the approach can be said to have been applied to any activity in
which explicit account is taken of perspective (worldview, mindset), this
implicitely requires participation (dialogue).
* success is determined retrospectively, so the emphasis is no
longer on forward looking sights or mindsets, things are viewed more from a
systems perspective.
I have found quantum and complexity to create much the same problems of
definition as sustainability. Collectively these appear to be more concept
words with necessarily vague boundaries that relate to a systems worldview.
The sustainability debate has grown in the socio-economics literature with
little attention being given to defining context. This is in contrast to
much of the new science literature on quantum and complexity which places
strong effort on context to articulate a new world view. It has been
suggested that information in context is the comparative advantage of the
future; so that perhaps it is time for the sustainability debate to focus
on the context of use of sustainability to avoid the current confusion
regarding its application.
I a postgraduate student and would welcome feedback on these thoughts.
Regards
Tony Meppem
CWPR (EE)
University of New England
Armidale 2351
Australia
ameppem@metz.une.edu.au
I am researching sustainable regional development. My intention is to model
the problem using the system dynamics / learning organisation framework
described in Morecroft and Stermans edition of Modelling for Learning
Organisations. This research has led me to at least try and get the concept
of sustainability clear for myself so that I can more adequately define the
problem. The Brundtland definition is the most widely accepted meet the
needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations
to meet their own needs. The general acceptance of this definition is
largely due to its vaugeness; get acceptance largely because it means
different things to different people. Will depend on your point of view of
the potential of technological progress and the regenerative capacity of
the environment in addition to views on equity and welfare andother things.
Sustainability is used over a wide range of contexts from sustainable
growth (?) to pristine environments; rather than in the context of a
process which would seem to offer some hope for moving forward in the
debate. The following describes my attempt at articulation:
Sustainability describes a state that is in transition constantly.
* the activity or objective of sustainability is not to win or lose
and the intention is not to arrive at a particular point.
* the approach can be said to have been applied to any activity in
which explicit account is taken of perspective (worldview, mindset), this
implicitely requires participation (dialogue).
* success is determined retrospectively, so the emphasis is no
longer on forward looking sights or mindsets, things are viewed more from a
systems perspective.
I have found quantum and complexity to create much the same problems of
definition as sustainability. Collectively these appear to be more concept
words with necessarily vague boundaries that relate to a systems worldview.
The sustainability debate has grown in the socio-economics literature with
little attention being given to defining context. This is in contrast to
much of the new science literature on quantum and complexity which places
strong effort on context to articulate a new world view. It has been
suggested that information in context is the comparative advantage of the
future; so that perhaps it is time for the sustainability debate to focus
on the context of use of sustainability to avoid the current confusion
regarding its application.
I a postgraduate student and would welcome feedback on these thoughts.
Regards
Tony Meppem
CWPR (EE)
University of New England
Armidale 2351
Australia
ameppem@metz.une.edu.au
-
saeed@ait.ac.th (Professor Khali
- Junior Member
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 3:39 am
Sustainability in context
Brundtland definition seems quite precise to me. Check out following papers:
Acharya, S. R., and Saeed, K. , An Attempt to Operationalize the
Recommendations of the "Limits to Growth" Study to Sustain Future of
Mankind. System Dynamics Review. (12)4. 1996 (forthcoming)
Saeed, K. An Attempt to Determine Criteria for Sensible rates of Use of
Material Resources. Technological Forecasting and Social Change. 28(4).
1985
Khalid Saeed
Professor and Program Coordinator
Infrastructure Planning & Management Program
School of Civil Engineering
ASIAN INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
P.O. Box 4, Klongluang, Pathumthani, THAILAND 12120
phones: (66-2)524-5681, (66-2)524-5785; fax: (66-2)524-5776
email saeed@ait.ac.th
Visit our program website at: http://www.ipm.ait.ac.th/
Acharya, S. R., and Saeed, K. , An Attempt to Operationalize the
Recommendations of the "Limits to Growth" Study to Sustain Future of
Mankind. System Dynamics Review. (12)4. 1996 (forthcoming)
Saeed, K. An Attempt to Determine Criteria for Sensible rates of Use of
Material Resources. Technological Forecasting and Social Change. 28(4).
1985
Khalid Saeed
Professor and Program Coordinator
Infrastructure Planning & Management Program
School of Civil Engineering
ASIAN INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
P.O. Box 4, Klongluang, Pathumthani, THAILAND 12120
phones: (66-2)524-5681, (66-2)524-5785; fax: (66-2)524-5776
email saeed@ait.ac.th
Visit our program website at: http://www.ipm.ait.ac.th/
-
Bob L Eberlein
- Member
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 3:39 am
Sustainability in context
I think Tony posed a very good question, and I am not the first to respond
to it. It is an interesting observation that the first three responses
were referrals to literature or other writings. While I think academic
discussions are wonderful, it is worth remembering that only a tiny
percent (or fraction thereof) of readers will ever actually follow up on
cited references.
It seems to me that much of the problem with the sustainability
discussions stems from a desire to keep score with a single number, or a
series of numbers at a single time. This is prevalent in both business and
public policy. Measures such as the balanced scorecard and wealth
corrected GDP remained mired in this "a number now" problem.
Why not just simulate for as long as you care about (say 300 years for a
country or 30 years for a company) and look at the behavior over the
entire period. System dynamics models can easily capture this time frame
and thus move the whole discussion to much more concrete issues around
specific policies and their long term impacts.
Bob Eberlein
vensim@world.std.com
PS: When replying to messages please do not include more than a few lines
of the previous message. Also be sure to sign your name at the bottom.
Thanks.
to it. It is an interesting observation that the first three responses
were referrals to literature or other writings. While I think academic
discussions are wonderful, it is worth remembering that only a tiny
percent (or fraction thereof) of readers will ever actually follow up on
cited references.
It seems to me that much of the problem with the sustainability
discussions stems from a desire to keep score with a single number, or a
series of numbers at a single time. This is prevalent in both business and
public policy. Measures such as the balanced scorecard and wealth
corrected GDP remained mired in this "a number now" problem.
Why not just simulate for as long as you care about (say 300 years for a
country or 30 years for a company) and look at the behavior over the
entire period. System dynamics models can easily capture this time frame
and thus move the whole discussion to much more concrete issues around
specific policies and their long term impacts.
Bob Eberlein
vensim@world.std.com
PS: When replying to messages please do not include more than a few lines
of the previous message. Also be sure to sign your name at the bottom.
Thanks.
-
Donella.H.Meadows@Dartmouth.EDU
- Junior Member
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 3:39 am
Sustainability in context
Herman Daly has defined the 3 essential rules of sustainability:
1. Use each renewable resource (forests, soils, groundwater, fish) no faster
than it regenerates.
2. Use each nonrenewable resource (fossil fuels, minerals, fossil groundwater)
no faster than the rate at which you can find a sustainable renewable
substitute (which obeys rule #1 -- to some extent, for minerals, this can
include recycling.).
3. Emit pollutants and wastes no faster than natural systems can absorb them,
recycle them, or render them harmless. (Which implies zero emission for things
the planet cant render harmless.)
These three rules are easily represented in system dynamics stock/flow terms.
They also make intuitive sense. They are also grossly violated by every nation
and economy on earth.
(Donella H. Meadows)
Donella.H.Meadows@Dartmouth.EDU
1. Use each renewable resource (forests, soils, groundwater, fish) no faster
than it regenerates.
2. Use each nonrenewable resource (fossil fuels, minerals, fossil groundwater)
no faster than the rate at which you can find a sustainable renewable
substitute (which obeys rule #1 -- to some extent, for minerals, this can
include recycling.).
3. Emit pollutants and wastes no faster than natural systems can absorb them,
recycle them, or render them harmless. (Which implies zero emission for things
the planet cant render harmless.)
These three rules are easily represented in system dynamics stock/flow terms.
They also make intuitive sense. They are also grossly violated by every nation
and economy on earth.
(Donella H. Meadows)
Donella.H.Meadows@Dartmouth.EDU
-
George Richardson
- Senior Member
- Posts: 68
- Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 3:39 am
Sustainability in context
Thanks to Dana for such clarity on sustainability. Simple stock and
flow ideas, but apparently very uncommon wisdom.
...George
----------------------------------------------------------------------
George P. Richardson G.P.Richardson@Albany.edu
Rockefeller College of Public Affairs and Policy Phone: 518-442-3859
University at Albany - SUNY, Albany, NY 12222 Fax: 518-442-3398
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
flow ideas, but apparently very uncommon wisdom.
...George
----------------------------------------------------------------------
George P. Richardson G.P.Richardson@Albany.edu
Rockefeller College of Public Affairs and Policy Phone: 518-442-3859
University at Albany - SUNY, Albany, NY 12222 Fax: 518-442-3398
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-
forda@mail.wsu.edu (Andy Ford)
- Junior Member
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 3:39 am
Sustainability in context
This is Andy Ford at WSU replying to Tony Meppems comments on the word
"Sustainability." Dana Meadows wrote an interesting editorial on the
popularity and meaning of this "buzzword." Its titled "Sustainability
Requires Know-How, Ingenuity and Wisdom," and it appeared as the April 25,
1992 editorial in her series of weekly editorials published as THE GLOBAL
CITIZEN.
----------------------------------------------------------
Andy Ford
Program in Environmental Science and Regional Planning
Washington State University
Pullman, WA 99164-4430
(509) 335-7846
FordA@mail.wsu.edu
----------------------------------------------------------
"Sustainability." Dana Meadows wrote an interesting editorial on the
popularity and meaning of this "buzzword." Its titled "Sustainability
Requires Know-How, Ingenuity and Wisdom," and it appeared as the April 25,
1992 editorial in her series of weekly editorials published as THE GLOBAL
CITIZEN.
----------------------------------------------------------
Andy Ford
Program in Environmental Science and Regional Planning
Washington State University
Pullman, WA 99164-4430
(509) 335-7846
FordA@mail.wsu.edu
----------------------------------------------------------
-
Peter Heffron
- Junior Member
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 3:39 am
Sustainability in context
Bob Eberlein wrote:
> I think Tony posed a very good question, and I am not the first to respond to it.
I agree with Bob, but when modelling I would add that there needs to be
a good mix of the basic principles of physics, ecology, economics, and
other disciplines, with instincts based on "having been there" (on the
ground), and a healthy respect for the complexity and sometimes
randomness of systems and sub-systems.
One way to help ensure that all of the above goes into a model is to
engage a multidisciplinary group of people who can agree on a common
vision and purpose, and then build the model together. Such a process
then needs to be validated to the degree possible in the field, under
(often messy) real-life circumstances, with the model then being
modified as necessary. In other words, the process is just as important
as the product, as they say.
On sustainability: Yes we need to strive for it and do our best to build
it into models. Such is the best way to appreciate that there probably
is no such thing as sustainability, rather an optimization of opposing
forces. In any case, entropy most likely rules in the end.
Thanks and best regards to all.
Peter Heffron, CARE-Honduras
careh@hondudata.hn
24 October 1996
> I think Tony posed a very good question, and I am not the first to respond to it.
I agree with Bob, but when modelling I would add that there needs to be
a good mix of the basic principles of physics, ecology, economics, and
other disciplines, with instincts based on "having been there" (on the
ground), and a healthy respect for the complexity and sometimes
randomness of systems and sub-systems.
One way to help ensure that all of the above goes into a model is to
engage a multidisciplinary group of people who can agree on a common
vision and purpose, and then build the model together. Such a process
then needs to be validated to the degree possible in the field, under
(often messy) real-life circumstances, with the model then being
modified as necessary. In other words, the process is just as important
as the product, as they say.
On sustainability: Yes we need to strive for it and do our best to build
it into models. Such is the best way to appreciate that there probably
is no such thing as sustainability, rather an optimization of opposing
forces. In any case, entropy most likely rules in the end.
Thanks and best regards to all.
Peter Heffron, CARE-Honduras
careh@hondudata.hn
24 October 1996
-
Peter Heffron
- Junior Member
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 3:39 am
Sustainability in context
Donella H. Meadows wrote:
> Herman Daly has defined the 3 essential rules of sustainability:
Thanks to Donnela for getting us back to the basics!
Donella, your note reminded me that we need to focus as much on sharing
these very elementary sustainability concepts with the help of
participatory modelling, among other tools, with people at all levels of
society--as on modelling per se.
Perhaps a broad-based combination of long-range strategic/green
planning, modelling, monitoring and evaluation, and creative activism
centered around the kinds of knowledge cited by you could contribute to
greater relative repeat relative sustainability overall. (That is
precisely our assumption per our own strategic plan in CARE-Honduras.)
All readers might be interested to know that the World Bank is becoming
increasingly enlightened in this regard (i.e., re: sustainability in an
integrated ecological-social-economic context). For example, see: 1.
Valuing the Environment; 2. Making Development Sustainable; 3.
Sustainability and the Wealth of Nations--three excellent papers by
Ismail Serageldin, Vice President for Environmentally Sustainable
Development at the Bank. ...Available from the World Bank or
WWW.Amazon.com. Good potential for learning more about --and
mainstreaming-- these concepts under discussion!
Finally, with respect to sustainability and modelling, have folks read
Fuzzy Thinking, by Bart Kosko? Even the World Bank is now talking about
fuzzy logic and multivariate analysis, combining ecological, social, and
economic factors (see the papers Ive mentioned, above). I feel Bart
Kosko is really on to something that we should try to emulate in as
straight-forward-as-possible-a-manner in our modelling efforts
(beginning at the vision-purpose-mapping stage).
TWO QUESTIONS...
Speaking of which, do any of you have (or know of someone who has)
experience (good or bad) incorporating fuzzy logic, or the concepts
behind fuzzy logic, into any ecological-social-economic systems models?
Any lessons learned/best practices out there in this regard?
AND
Is there any advice out there regarding the use of modelling to help
determine comparative cost-benefit of primary health care, agriculture
and natural resources, small economic activity, and integrated
development projects (singly and/or in combination, rural and urban,
developing country situations)? We are desperate for advice in this
area.
Thanks.
Peter Heffron
CARE-Honduras
careh@hondudata.hn
> Herman Daly has defined the 3 essential rules of sustainability:
Thanks to Donnela for getting us back to the basics!
Donella, your note reminded me that we need to focus as much on sharing
these very elementary sustainability concepts with the help of
participatory modelling, among other tools, with people at all levels of
society--as on modelling per se.
Perhaps a broad-based combination of long-range strategic/green
planning, modelling, monitoring and evaluation, and creative activism
centered around the kinds of knowledge cited by you could contribute to
greater relative repeat relative sustainability overall. (That is
precisely our assumption per our own strategic plan in CARE-Honduras.)
All readers might be interested to know that the World Bank is becoming
increasingly enlightened in this regard (i.e., re: sustainability in an
integrated ecological-social-economic context). For example, see: 1.
Valuing the Environment; 2. Making Development Sustainable; 3.
Sustainability and the Wealth of Nations--three excellent papers by
Ismail Serageldin, Vice President for Environmentally Sustainable
Development at the Bank. ...Available from the World Bank or
WWW.Amazon.com. Good potential for learning more about --and
mainstreaming-- these concepts under discussion!
Finally, with respect to sustainability and modelling, have folks read
Fuzzy Thinking, by Bart Kosko? Even the World Bank is now talking about
fuzzy logic and multivariate analysis, combining ecological, social, and
economic factors (see the papers Ive mentioned, above). I feel Bart
Kosko is really on to something that we should try to emulate in as
straight-forward-as-possible-a-manner in our modelling efforts
(beginning at the vision-purpose-mapping stage).
TWO QUESTIONS...
Speaking of which, do any of you have (or know of someone who has)
experience (good or bad) incorporating fuzzy logic, or the concepts
behind fuzzy logic, into any ecological-social-economic systems models?
Any lessons learned/best practices out there in this regard?
AND
Is there any advice out there regarding the use of modelling to help
determine comparative cost-benefit of primary health care, agriculture
and natural resources, small economic activity, and integrated
development projects (singly and/or in combination, rural and urban,
developing country situations)? We are desperate for advice in this
area.
Thanks.
Peter Heffron
CARE-Honduras
careh@hondudata.hn
Sustainability in context
At 09:39 PM 10/25/96 -0600, Peter Heffron <careh@hondudata.hn wrote:
>3. Sustainability and the Wealth of Nations--three excellent papers by
>Ismail Serageldin, Vice President for Environmentally Sustainable
>Development at the Bank.
Item #3 is not yet available from Amazon.com. It is available for $7.95
(plus $5 per order) from the World Bank at
http://www.worldbank.org/html/extpb/HowToOrder.html.
World Bank Publications are at:
http://www.worldbank.org/html/extpb/Publications.html
************************************************************
Hal Levin email: hlevin@cruzio.com
2548 Empire Grade, Santa Cruz, CA 95060
Tel. 408 425 3946 Fax 408 426 6522
>3. Sustainability and the Wealth of Nations--three excellent papers by
>Ismail Serageldin, Vice President for Environmentally Sustainable
>Development at the Bank.
Item #3 is not yet available from Amazon.com. It is available for $7.95
(plus $5 per order) from the World Bank at
http://www.worldbank.org/html/extpb/HowToOrder.html.
World Bank Publications are at:
http://www.worldbank.org/html/extpb/Publications.html
************************************************************
Hal Levin email: hlevin@cruzio.com
2548 Empire Grade, Santa Cruz, CA 95060
Tel. 408 425 3946 Fax 408 426 6522