Ventana software support forum

Posted: **Tue May 20, 2003 1:46 pm**

Hello all,

Ive been a member of this mailing list for a while now.
When I recently wanted to look up some earlier emails
that were part of a certain discussion, I had a very
hard time finding them, even with the search option that
was provided.

Ive seen communities come into life all over the internet.
Every subject seems to have one. Most communities have,
somewhere on the web, a Forum or Discussion Board page where
members of such a community can discuss matters of importance
to them. But I couldnt find such a place for System Dynamics.
And yet we have a lot to discuss.

Looking from an SD point of view, I feel that there is limited
feedback to an email discussion. People email a question, or
pose a subject, some discussion takes place, and then other
people ask different questions, thus often ending the discussion
on the first subject. In my view, the discussions are pretty linear.

Someone who is relatively new to the field might want to get
information on subjects that have been discussed by the SD
community in the past. I think a good place to start would
be a structured Forum or Discussion Board, available on or
easily reachable from the SD Society page. Also, joining and
participating in the Forum should not be more difficult than
adding your name to the email list and sending mail to it.

What do you think?

-------------------------------------
Example Forum Pages:

http://www.designcommunity.com/forum.html (simple structure)
http://karllois.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/yabb ... ard=movies (more advanced)
http://www.paintballforum.com/forum/index.php (quite advanced)
-------------------------------------

Rutger Mooy
From: <R.M.Mooy@telecom.tno.nl>

Posted: **Wed May 21, 2003 7:01 am**

I am not much updating the site any more but on http://www.optimlator.com, I had
provided an email search mechanism as well as a place for online
discussions, in the sense of a Discussion Forum on many subjects, including
SD. It was in the heady days of late nineties when so many new things were
coming up. Check it out.

Anyway, I believe this topic has been discussed before (and I also had
proposed the same in the past) and the SD community had decided to go with
the mailing list option (against newsgroup or discussion forum options).
But times and technologies have changed so it may be worth visiting again.

Best regards

Jaideep Mukherjee, Ph. D.
jaideep@optimlator.com

Posted: **Wed May 21, 2003 7:39 am**

Hello Rutger,

We recently launched a forum similar to the paintball one you provided the
link for. The primary aim was to assist in supporting software (anyone who
has supported software will know that the same questions crop up all the
time). There is a forum for general discussion of SD related topics and also
a couple of others, but I wanted to wait before announcing it to the list
for the following reasons.

1. We had more traffic on the forum (especially SD related).
2. I did not want to remove any potential traffic from this list, the
number of users and quality of response is usually exceptional.
3. I did not want to appear to be advertising.

Now that someone has suggested a forum, please feel free to sign up and make
use of it. Any suggestions for improvement or additional discussion areas,
please feel free to contact me and let me know.

http://www.ventanasystems.co.uk/forum

Tony Kennedy.
From: "Tony Kennedy"

Posted: **Wed May 21, 2003 8:12 am**

Web based discussion boards are relatively inexpensive to operate (scripts
can be found in a variety of places for free) and may be the only option
for people who do not have direct access to a server where list serv
software is running. I suspect those factors mostly explain their
proliferation. For ease of communication they are in my opinion a far cry
from a list serv.

If every list I now belong to converted to a web based interface, I would
have to visit approximately 25 web sites a day (or on some other periodic
basis, the point being I would spend a lot of time traveling from web site
to web site trying to find the messages I havent read).

On the paintball.com site, mentioned as an advanced site, the steps I took
to read the most recent posts were (1) load the site, (2) scroll to a
desired topic link (I picked one arbitrarily near the bottom of the page),
(3) select a conversation thread (likewise one near the bottom), (4) click
on the "last" link to get to the last page of messages, then (5) scrolled
to the bottom of the page to read the messages. There were no flags letting
me know what messages Ive read and those that I have not.

As compared to opening my email client and having all of the SD mail
sitting in my SD mailbox, with the "unread" flag quickly identifying
messages I havent read, the web based format lost out by a huge margin.

I appreciate the desire to cull through older messages. On the other hand,
this list (as long as I have been a member - since 1997) has routinely been
quite hospitable to queries and has helped with high quality information
and references (except for one I recall where it appeared a student wanted
the list to do the lions share of his research for him) .

Bill Braun
From: Bill Braun <medprac@hlthsys.com>

Posted: **Tue Jun 10, 2003 5:55 pm**

Hello All,

A short while ago, I came up with the idea of creating a System
Dynamics Forum: a place to discuss SD on the web.

I have received several (some personal) reactions. Ive put them
into categories below:

* First of all, theres a group of people already hosting such a
Forum. Some of these seem to be company-specific.
Examples:
Ventana Systems has a Forum at http://www.ventanasystems.co.uk/forum
Jared Rhoads supports http://www.systemdynamicist.net .

* Secondly, some people seem to find a list server (like the current
one) much easier to access. Of course, reading email sitting in your
Inbox is quicker than going to a web site, possibly logging in, and
checking the messages on a board.

* Third, some people agree with the concept of a Forum being better
(in any sense) than a mailing list.

* Fourth, a few other suggestions were made, most notably changing to
a YahooGroups system. This system allows you to receive mails like the
list server, but it also provides for quick access to past messages.
Furthermore, it also supports a Calendar function, Member listing,
file upload and download, a database function and more. There are
already more than 10 YahooGroups devoted to System Dynamics, most
of them regional.

It is my opinion that the YahooGroups option is a very good one - it
allows for quick access through email while providing members who need
a little more with extra facilities. And this without being less
user-friendly than the current system. There is a bit of advertising
in the mails and on the website.

Im not sure who operates this list, but in any case, Id like to hear
some more pro and con arguments on this..!

I also hope to talk to some of you in New York during the SD Conference.

Best regards,

Rutger Mooy
From: <R.M.Mooy@telecom.tno.nl>

Posted: **Wed Jun 11, 2003 8:09 am**

Rutger,

I appreciate that you care, and I do sense an opportunity, if people
wish, to carry this group to an even higher level.

That said, I would not at all be in favor of a move to YahooGroups.
Its free, for sure, but I hear too many complaints about it from
those who run it (Id have to ask a few moderators to get real data,
but the complaints seem to deal with the time it takes to moderate
such a group and the difficulty when things go wrong). AFAIK, there
is no easy way to export the contents of the group, although Ive
heard rumors some are working on 3rd party tools to do that. Its
_slow_ when reading on the Web or when accessing any of the other
features. The YahooGroups I belong to I access only by email, and I
think many (most?) of the YahooGroups I pay attention to are considering
(or actively making plans for) moving to another alternative.

You mention the other features of YahooGroups. We already have the
ability to share models in the current format, and I see a total of 4
models (2 of which appear to be the same model in different formats).

Id like to thank Bob and any others responsible for making this group
exist. It does take work, and I realize you get nothing directly from
the time and effort you donate to it (and us). I wouldnt wish
YahooGroups on him.

The only administrative feature I might wish for is an up-to-date
searchable archive. We have an archive, accessible over the Web, and
we have a searchable archive that seems to be complete up to 2001. If
Optimalator isnt going to be upgraded, perhaps itd be nice to use
something like MHonArc
(http://www.oac.uci.edu/indiv/ehood/mhonarc.html) or Hypermail
(http://www.hypermail.org/) to provide a friendlier search capability.
That said, Ive not found that to be a serious problem for me to date,
so itd just be a nicety, not by any means a necessity.

Bob, is this a majordomo list or a listserv (or mailman or mailbase or
...)? We may also be able to extract archive information by email
request, if its one of those and youve got that feature turned on.

> Im not sure who operates this list, but in any case, Id like to hear
> some more pro and con arguments on this..!

Do a search on Google for <<system dynamics mailing list>>, and youll
find http://www.vensim.com/sdmail/sdmail.html -- that should answer
your question.

One of the lessons I was taught years ago in a course by Kepner-Tregoe
(based on research by the RAND Corporation) was that discussing pros
and cons are notoriously poor ways to make decisions. Id encourage
us to think first about what we want to achieve and then about the
criteria we might use to see if an alternative meets those objectives.
We could then list a number of alternatives which might be acceptable
and rate them against the criteria. Finally, we can look at the
leading contenders to see if they present any unacceptable risks.

To kick that off, here is a stab at what I want in the system-dynamics
list:

Provide a venue for people engaged in system dynamics to meet, ask
questions, and share insights without needing to travel.

Regards,

Bill
From: Bill Harris <bill_harris@facilitatedsystems.com>
--
Bill Harris 3217 102nd Place SE
Facilitated Systems Everett, WA 98208 USA
http://facilitatedsystems.com/ phone: +1 425 337-5541

Posted: **Wed Jun 11, 2003 8:24 am**

Hi Rutger,

I am the one who runs the system-dynamics mailing list.

I have looked into yahoo groups, and I dont like them. They have annoying
ads and they archive things for only a month or two. The system dynamics
mailing list has archives going back to December of 1994 (
http://www.vensim.com/sdmail/archives/ ) though these are in a somewhat
inconvient format. The longevity, however, is very important and rules out
Yahoo groups for me.

Creating a topic threaded and searchable index of the discussion on this
list would have some value. Jaideep Mukarjee went part way there with his
searchable list. I toy with the idea from time to time. Tony Kennedy who
manages the Ventana Systems UK forum almost volunteered to do this - and is
currently taking a closer look at setting something up. So it might yet
happen. I dont think the readily available solutions quite fit the needs
of this list, so I think we do need to create something special.

Bob Eberlein
bob@vensim.com

Posted: **Wed Jun 11, 2003 5:33 pm**

I have been on a forum on MSN over the past year and it works quite
well.

FYI, the owners were previously on Yahoo, and switched to MSN because
of maintenance problems with Yahoo.

Advantages and disadvantages to MSN (probably any web forum):

1. Categories can be established.
2. Participants can choose web access or e-mail. I prefer web access
myself.
3. There have been many complaints by those using e-mail, because for
some unimaginable design concept, it is NOT possible to subscribe to
individual topic areas by e-mail, just the entire forum. Therefore,
certain individuals are forced to read many irrelevant (their
opinion) e-mails.

Ed Gallaher
From: Ed Gallaher <gallaher@ohsu.edu>

Posted: **Wed Jun 11, 2003 5:42 pm**

The original genesis of Rutgers inquiry stemmed from the desire to search
through list archives for past posts. What is the overall demand for such
searching capabilities? With what frequency is the demand for such searches
real? Have you found this a drawback to this list with enough fequency to
thwart research?

Are searchable archives something that can be added to this list?

Out of general interest I looked at the SD related offerings on Yahoo
Groups to which Rutger referred. Two appear to be of substance and the
remainder have 10 or fewer members, and/or are highly specialized in their
focus (e.g., SD and Health systems Research sponsored by the Iranian
Medical Society) if not their language (as is the IMS group).

Speaking from a personal opinion, this list has been one of the three best
that I belong to. While a proliferation of lists couldbe seen as a good
development from one point of view, I question fracturing this lists cadre
of learned and experienced folks into multiple lists. It seems to defeat
the purpose of having such a community of SD learners and teachers.

Bill Braun
From: Bill Braun <medprac@hlthsys.com>

Posted: **Thu Jun 12, 2003 10:57 am**

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C330D1.6F02ABD0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

To All,

I would like to express my opinion on this issue once again. In having
studied dynamic systems, it is quite clear to me that as (or if) the
field of System Dynamics continues to grow, the greater the demand will
be for a more powerful interface for the entire community. If the
community as a whole does not recognize this, then new members will
become frustrated or discouraged, senior members will grow tired of
answering the same old questions and the overall expansion of
discussions will become bogged down or fraction off elsewhere.

I personally would not like to see this happen, but in some regards I
have already seen the signs. I mean no disrespect, and I am not laying
blame or making accusations towards the individuals who have helped
build the community thus far. In fact, I applaud Bob Eberleins faithful
commitment to maintaining such a growing list of individuals. I am also
proud to finally be a member of the System Dynamics Society and
appreciate all the hard work put into publishing the Review, organizing
the conference, and maintaining other membership services. Thank you
all.

Yet at the same time there seems to be a great reluctance to embrace
change that would encourage growth. Whether it is intentional,
subconscious, or completely by accident, I have sensed from many other
new members a certain anxiety when approaching the community. Some of
that is perhaps a "we are not worthy" complex from having read so many
brilliant papers and books from list members that have really built the
foundations of our own understanding.

For example, in the last year and a half I have seen only one other
individual studying System Dynamics at WPI make a posting or comment.
Why wouldnt any students of the only undergraduate program in the U.S.
have questions for the list serve or projects to share??!! They do, and
many others most likely have questions, or even better, have resources
such as in depth studies to share with the community. So what can be
done?

I am not personally in any position to do much more than share my
thoughts, but I am more than willing to contribute any skills that would
be useful. My first suggestion is to leave the list serve exactly as it
is. Let someone else take the responsibility of mirroring the discussion
to a webpage. From there individuals could expand the discussion, upload
files, and do whatever else with a clear distinction that if they wish
to participate in the list serve discussion they will have to do it as
we do now. Let the K-12 list serve and the Sustainability list serve
remain as they are, but a webpage should include the discussions of all
well established SD groups that have since fractured off. And all of it
must be presented in a well organized and moderated format.

For this reason any template or group site such as yahoo or msn is
completely out the question. There was a time when I was a fan of these,
but the reality is that it should be completely controlled by the
community. I previously suggested that the System Dynamics Society take
the lead in starting such a project and that WPI help out by tapping the
"free" efforts of students who need projects. I was disappointed that
previously neither replied with an "ok we will consider it" or at least
an "Im sorry, but we cant do anything right now." I hope this time
some of you with authority will respond.

I have gone on too long as usual, but I appreciate those that have taken
the time to consider my opinion. This is of course only my opinion, but
I think it does reflect the feelings of many closet list serve
participants. I know this point was a surprise to many senior members
before, and that comments were made to alleviate individual anxiety. Yet
in the long-term growth of SD, there really is a need for a very
informative web site where an individual new to the field can poke
around and find answers to all those "dumb" beginner questions.

Peace,
Bruce
From: "Bruce Skarin" <bruceskarin@hotmail.com>

------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C330D1.6F02ABD0--

Posted: **Fri Jun 13, 2003 8:26 am**

Dear All

In respect of using Yahoogroups, it is a real pain for the listowner. I
presently own around 6 groups and I now get lots (and I mean lots) of
junk mail each day offering to sell me Viagra, cheap home loans, a
bigger penis, and sundry other things. I guess that Yahoogroups has
been hacked and the email addresses are moving like wildfire around the
internet.

Anyway, I recommend to all list members that you steer clear of
Yahoogroups.

Cheers

John

------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr John Wolfenden
Centre for Ecological Economics and Water Policy Research (CEEWPR)
University of New England, Armidale, NSW, 2351, Australia
Australia Ph (02) 6773 3995 Fx (02) 6773 3237
International +61 2 6773 3995 +61 2 6773 3237
Mobile 0429 809 077; email: john.wolfenden@une.edu.au
web site http://www.une.edu.au/cwpr

Ventana software support forum

Community Forum

Community Forum

Community Forum

Community Forum

Community Forum

Community Forum

Community Forum

Community Forum

Community Forum

Community Forum

Community Forum

Community Forum