System Dynamics Society Membership

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Bill Braun
Senior Member
Posts: 73
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 3:39 am

System Dynamics Society Membership

Post by Bill Braun »

Arguing For: This could be done quite easily and as a matter of Society
policy. Populate the list membership from the Society membership and be
done with it. The argument may have merit though I question whether it is
here (on the list) that it should be explored.

Arguing Against: Delays. Different people find need and value at different
times based on different levels of absorption. Id hate to turn away an
interested person who may discover a new way of thinking about systems over
a [long] period of time, and who might turn into a Society member some day.

Bill Braun
From: Bill Braun <medprac@hlthsys.com>
Bill Harris
Senior Member
Posts: 75
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 3:39 am

System Dynamics Society Membership

Post by Bill Harris »

I agree; Bob deserves thanks. This is a very good service for the
community, and I appreciate it.

> Id be the last to turn away an enquirer,

I guess its not clear to me that this is the Societys facilities. I
checked out
http://www.vensim.com/sdmail/sdmail.html, and it made no
such claim that I could find. I checked
http://www.albany.edu/cpr/sds/member_services.htm, and it claimed no
ownership of the system-dynamics mailing list that I could find. If
anything, this seems like an open community with support by Bob or by
Vensim (or by both). Feel free to show me where I missed the key
information.

If this is a System Dynamics Society facility and if the society wants
to make it a member service, then it should be pretty easy to do; just
put the appropriate protection scheme on signups and be done with it.
To encourage enquirers, maybe thered be an open list for the curious
and a closed list for the members.

On the other hand, ODNet has multiple mailing lists, and none of those
that I see are limited to members. GRP-FACL is a facility of the IAF,
as I recall, and their list is also public.

Just some thoughts; feel free to educate me.

Regards,

Bill
--
Bill Harris 3217 102nd Place SE
Facilitated Systems Everett, WA 98208 USA
http://facilitatedsystems.com/ phone: +1 425 337-5541
Bob Eberlein
Member
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 3:39 am

System Dynamics Society Membership

Post by Bob Eberlein »

Hi Everyone,

I have enjoyed getting some of the responses here, but I did want
to make a few comments.

First, this mailing list is just something that I do. It actually
got started five or six years ago when Daniel Kim was trying to pull
together different people doing systems thinking and system dynamics.
Someone suggested a mailing list and Rick Karash jumped on the idea
and started the learning organization mailing list. I was hoping for
something a little more solidly system dynamics and so I started my
own. It has been going ever since. While I have been an officer of
the System Dynamics Society for forever (at least it seems that way)
there is no direct link.

While I would strongly encourage people to join the System Dynamics
Society, it is not a requirement to subscribe. What I think should
be a requirement (though it is completely unenforceable) is that
subscribers should both give and take information. That is, if you
ask for help on an issue you should also offer help to others. That
is, of course, what makes us a community.

For those of you who prefer to read and not post I think that is fine
(actually it is what I do for the most part). Still dont be afraid to
contribute to the discussion. Interesting insights can come from
curious places.

Bob Eberlein
bob@vensim.com
carolus
Junior Member
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 5:14 pm

System Dynamics Society Membership

Post by carolus »

Dear colleagues,

geoff coyle wrote with regard to the content of this discussion list:

>Id be the last to turn away an enquirer, but is it unreasonable
> to suggest that someone who wants to use the Societys facilities

This struck me as rather strange.
I thought there has been put forward, also on this list, a number of
reasons why system dynamics should - if I may paraphrase - meet more of
the rest of the world.
I recall - for example - the questioning: "how do I tell in the elevator
what SD is really about?"
With this discussion list, which everyone interested may join, this
objective is met, most of all thanks to Bob Eberlein, as Geoff Coyle has
said.

Given the reaction of Geoff Coyle, I would deduct that - at least to him
- this discussion list attracts to many enquirers who are not a paying
member of the SDC..
These enquirers - I suppose - generate two types of reactions.

The first is the - apparent - irritated one:
Here we have a free rider again; shame on him of her.
Why dont you pay your dues first and than well talk. If not, be silent

The second consists of two parts:
a) Someone of the community is prepared to answer the enquirer and -
most of the time - (re)direct the enquirer to a specific book, article,
website or research institute.
b) The - ignored but - most interesting spin-off of such an answer is
that the rest of the readers on this discussion list - being a member
or not - is very accurately informed about what, where and how.
This is very valuable, at least to those who do not know all about
system dynamics.
Not only this answering informs a much larger number of possible
enquirers, it also generates - I find - sometimes interesting
information on completely different domains and subjects somewhere
related to system dynamics. It broadens the
reference-mode-of-research-horizon.
Particularly this secondary side effect is most valuable.
Since, research in general starts with posing questions. Answering these
questions should not start with asking for a fee.

So, if this discussion list should be closed to outsiders, or
non-members of the SD community, I would say or even expect that the
spreading of
the SD approach will diminish. And I cant imagine that being the
objective of any research community.

Answering Geoffs question I would say that it would indeed be
unreasonable to reject a non-member enquirer.


--
greetings,

mr Carolus Grütters
Law & IT
http://www.jur.kun.nl
it/

Centre for Migration Law
http://www.jur.kun.nl/cmr/

University of Nijmegen
The Netherlands
email: c.grutters@jur.kun.nl
tel: +31 (0)24 361.5701
fax: +31 (0)24 361.6145
zenabraham@aol.com
Junior Member
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 3:39 am

System Dynamics Society Membership

Post by zenabraham@aol.com »

Hello!

Geoff Coyles e-mail came right on the "heels" of a discussion of the merits
of establishing system dynamics as a "hard science," and my rather combative
retort to his post, one deliberately designed to prod one to respond.

So, since Im not a member of the System Dynamics Society (but would like to
be; Im just saving money in this poor US economy right now), I wondered if
his post was spurred by my aggressive participation in this discussion.

I dont know the answer to that (only Geoff does) but I must state that if
system dynamics is to reach beyond this small world of experts, and thus
create more potential clients and users, and expand the industrys market
value, then excluding people in any way is not the answer.

I too find myself at a pause for an economy of words to describe what system
dynamics is to the lay person. We exist in a time where people want quick
answers and marketing methods have seemed to alter our very way of thinking,
at least in the US. Like it or not, SD must expand in this environment.

So, please encourage more people to join. Moreover, I noticed that the posts
seem to be overwhelmingly male; is there something we can do to get more
women involved?

In my view, and I think Geoff will disagree with this, SD is a kind of way of
thinking that can be broadly applied. The hallmark objective of any SD
discussion should be to challenge conventional thinking: to force people to
think about the entire system by (frankly) attacking the very foundations of
their beliefs in the way any one aspect of our society works, or should work.

So, I say its time to expand our ranks, not contract them.

Zennie
From: zenabraham@aol.com

Zenophon Abraham
510-444-4037
http://broadcast.forio.com/sims/xfl
"Enda D. Layuk Allo"
Junior Member
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2002 3:39 am

System Dynamics Society Membership

Post by "Enda D. Layuk Allo" »

Dear all,

I am also not a Society member (yet) , although I am a SD fans since three
years back. I am one of few in this list who do not any relation directly
and/or indirectly with SD. My interest to SD comes because of I see the
power of SD to "push " people see problem as system rather than blamming
others. To believe that fundamental solution not obvious and easy; and we
need to sit, think and found the leverage points. That some of points that I
love from SD.

I live in Indonesia with maybe only some people who knows SD and its power &
benefits (many people know Peter Senge verywell because of his Fifth
Discipline -but do not realize that some SD foundations are included in his
book). At the end of year 2001, I gave an presentation to Indonesian Society
for Lecturers of Industrial Engineering. My presentation was actually
addressed to industrial maintenance problems, and I included also some SD
models. And what I have got? A lot of critics and cynism -although I could
survive-, since I used SD (later I know almost everybody in that room of
the attendes are people grew up in Operating Research study. I am the only
neutrale one in that room, since my background is Aerospace).

Then I know since that time, I need to pull together people in Indonesia
(and/or ASEAN countries) to explore more on SD, and hope that they later can
prove its power and benefits. Also to encourage young generations to learn
and explore this knowledge.

I have to point out that I believe that SD can play an important role in
recovering and developing of our economic and especially building
sustainability growth. That is why from my humble position and place, I
would like offer my voluentary to
1. Preparing an SD chapter in Indonesia & ASEAN region
2. Proposing Indonesian as a host for 2003 SD Conference

I am sure that you all have many things to offer to this regions, and the
problems in this regions are very complex that you can not miss them in your
SD models.


My best regards
Enda D. Layuk Allo
From: "Enda D. Layuk Allo" <
cit@ph.edu>
Dept. of Industrial Engineering
Universitas Pelita Harapan, Karawaci
Indonesia
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