Ventana software support forum

Posted: **Sun Mar 10, 2002 9:00 am**

Arguing For: This could be done quite easily and as a matter of Society
policy. Populate the list membership from the Society membership and be
done with it. The argument may have merit though I question whether it is
here (on the list) that it should be explored.

Arguing Against: Delays. Different people find need and value at different
times based on different levels of absorption. Id hate to turn away an
interested person who may discover a new way of thinking about systems over
a [long] period of time, and who might turn into a Society member some day.

Bill Braun
From: Bill Braun <medprac@hlthsys.com>

Posted: **Sun Mar 10, 2002 2:20 pm**

I agree; Bob deserves thanks. This is a very good service for the
community, and I appreciate it.

> Id be the last to turn away an enquirer,

I guess its not clear to me that this is the Societys facilities. I
checked out http://www.vensim.com/sdmail/sdmail.html, and it made no
such claim that I could find. I checked
http://www.albany.edu/cpr/sds/member_services.htm, and it claimed no
ownership of the system-dynamics mailing list that I could find. If
anything, this seems like an open community with support by Bob or by
Vensim (or by both). Feel free to show me where I missed the key
information.

If this is a System Dynamics Society facility and if the society wants
to make it a member service, then it should be pretty easy to do; just
put the appropriate protection scheme on signups and be done with it.
To encourage enquirers, maybe thered be an open list for the curious
and a closed list for the members.

On the other hand, ODNet has multiple mailing lists, and none of those
that I see are limited to members. GRP-FACL is a facility of the IAF,
as I recall, and their list is also public.

Just some thoughts; feel free to educate me.

Regards,

Bill
--
Bill Harris 3217 102nd Place SE
Facilitated Systems Everett, WA 98208 USA
http://facilitatedsystems.com/ phone: +1 425 337-5541

Posted: **Mon Mar 11, 2002 9:47 am**

Hi Everyone,

I have enjoyed getting some of the responses here, but I did want
to make a few comments.

First, this mailing list is just something that I do. It actually
got started five or six years ago when Daniel Kim was trying to pull
together different people doing systems thinking and system dynamics.
Someone suggested a mailing list and Rick Karash jumped on the idea
and started the learning organization mailing list. I was hoping for
something a little more solidly system dynamics and so I started my
own. It has been going ever since. While I have been an officer of
the System Dynamics Society for forever (at least it seems that way)
there is no direct link.

While I would strongly encourage people to join the System Dynamics
Society, it is not a requirement to subscribe. What I think should
be a requirement (though it is completely unenforceable) is that
subscribers should both give and take information. That is, if you
ask for help on an issue you should also offer help to others. That
is, of course, what makes us a community.

For those of you who prefer to read and not post I think that is fine
(actually it is what I do for the most part). Still dont be afraid to
contribute to the discussion. Interesting insights can come from
curious places.

Bob Eberlein
bob@vensim.com

Posted: **Mon Mar 11, 2002 12:41 pm**

I guess that, even though I agree that his first argument would be easy
to implement, I find Bills second argument a bit more compelling.
Anyone who finds information requests from non-members to be
intrusive and burdensome can simply ignore them. People who want
to help others, whether or not they are members, can choose to do
that, also.

John Voyer
From: "John J. Voyer" <voyer@usm.maine.edu>

Posted: **Mon Mar 11, 2002 1:38 pm**

No, its not unreasonable to suggest that discussants join the Society
since it would actually be doing them a favor by putting them in touch
with all of the Societys resources. Going any further than suggesting,
however, is not wise.

John W. Gunkler
jgunkler@sprintmail.com

Posted: **Mon Mar 11, 2002 2:50 pm**

Geoff Coyle commented:

"...is it unreasonable to suggest that someone who wants to use the
Societys facilities to be a fairly regular discussant should also pay
his/her dues and actually join the System Dynamics Society? "

Yes it is unreasonable. The list provides an indicator of the vitality
and usefulness of the Society. I started on the list as a non-member,
then, after a few years, became a member. Not all users will become
members, but some might. In any case they will learn from us, we hope.
And we may learn from them too.

_______________
Richard G. Dudley
drrdudley@compuserve.com
http://home.indo.net.id/~rdudley
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/drrdudley

Posted: **Tue Apr 09, 2002 9:26 am**

Folks,

Over the last few years with this excellent discussion group Ive noticed two types of message. One is from an enquirer who wishes to find out something about system dynamics. The other is a discussant who wants to contribute to a debate.

Fair enough, but its worth pointing out that this discussion group did not just happen. It only exists because the System Dynamics Society exists and it only works because Bob Eberlein (to whom many thanks) puts in a lot of effort to making it run.

Id be the last to turn away an enquirer, but is it unreasonable to suggest that someone who wants to use the Societys facilities to be a fairly regular discussant should also pay his/her dues and actually join the System Dynamics Society?

Geoff Coyle
From: "geoff coyle" <geoff.coyle@btinternet.com>

Posted: **Thu Apr 11, 2002 9:50 am**

Dear colleagues,

geoff coyle wrote with regard to the content of this discussion list:

>Id be the last to turn away an enquirer, but is it unreasonable
> to suggest that someone who wants to use the Societys facilities

This struck me as rather strange.
I thought there has been put forward, also on this list, a number of
reasons why system dynamics should - if I may paraphrase - meet more of
the rest of the world.
I recall - for example - the questioning: "how do I tell in the elevator
what SD is really about?"
With this discussion list, which everyone interested may join, this
objective is met, most of all thanks to Bob Eberlein, as Geoff Coyle has
said.

Given the reaction of Geoff Coyle, I would deduct that - at least to him
- this discussion list attracts to many enquirers who are not a paying
member of the SDC..
These enquirers - I suppose - generate two types of reactions.

The first is the - apparent - irritated one:
Here we have a free rider again; shame on him of her.
Why dont you pay your dues first and than well talk. If not, be silent

The second consists of two parts:
a) Someone of the community is prepared to answer the enquirer and -
most of the time - (re)direct the enquirer to a specific book, article,
website or research institute.
b) The - ignored but - most interesting spin-off of such an answer is
that the rest of the readers on this discussion list - being a member
or not - is very accurately informed about what, where and how.
This is very valuable, at least to those who do not know all about
system dynamics.
Not only this answering informs a much larger number of possible
enquirers, it also generates - I find - sometimes interesting
information on completely different domains and subjects somewhere
related to system dynamics. It broadens the
reference-mode-of-research-horizon.
Particularly this secondary side effect is most valuable.
Since, research in general starts with posing questions. Answering these
questions should not start with asking for a fee.

So, if this discussion list should be closed to outsiders, or
non-members of the SD community, I would say or even expect that the
spreading of
the SD approach will diminish. And I cant imagine that being the
objective of any research community.

Answering Geoffs question I would say that it would indeed be
unreasonable to reject a non-member enquirer.

--
greetings,

mr Carolus Grütters
Law & IT
http://www.jur.kun.nl
it/

Centre for Migration Law
http://www.jur.kun.nl/cmr/

University of Nijmegen
The Netherlands
email: c.grutters@jur.kun.nl
tel: +31 (0)24 361.5701
fax: +31 (0)24 361.6145

Posted: **Thu Apr 11, 2002 1:50 pm**

Hello!

Geoff Coyles e-mail came right on the "heels" of a discussion of the merits
of establishing system dynamics as a "hard science," and my rather combative
retort to his post, one deliberately designed to prod one to respond.

So, since Im not a member of the System Dynamics Society (but would like to
be; Im just saving money in this poor US economy right now), I wondered if
his post was spurred by my aggressive participation in this discussion.

I dont know the answer to that (only Geoff does) but I must state that if
system dynamics is to reach beyond this small world of experts, and thus
create more potential clients and users, and expand the industrys market
value, then excluding people in any way is not the answer.

I too find myself at a pause for an economy of words to describe what system
dynamics is to the lay person. We exist in a time where people want quick
answers and marketing methods have seemed to alter our very way of thinking,
at least in the US. Like it or not, SD must expand in this environment.

So, please encourage more people to join. Moreover, I noticed that the posts
seem to be overwhelmingly male; is there something we can do to get more
women involved?

In my view, and I think Geoff will disagree with this, SD is a kind of way of
thinking that can be broadly applied. The hallmark objective of any SD
discussion should be to challenge conventional thinking: to force people to
think about the entire system by (frankly) attacking the very foundations of
their beliefs in the way any one aspect of our society works, or should work.

So, I say its time to expand our ranks, not contract them.

Zennie
From: zenabraham@aol.com

Zenophon Abraham
510-444-4037
http://broadcast.forio.com/sims/xfl

Posted: **Fri Apr 12, 2002 9:50 pm**

Dear all,

I am also not a Society member (yet) , although I am a SD fans since three
years back. I am one of few in this list who do not any relation directly
and/or indirectly with SD. My interest to SD comes because of I see the
power of SD to "push " people see problem as system rather than blamming
others. To believe that fundamental solution not obvious and easy; and we
need to sit, think and found the leverage points. That some of points that I
love from SD.

I live in Indonesia with maybe only some people who knows SD and its power &
benefits (many people know Peter Senge verywell because of his Fifth
Discipline -but do not realize that some SD foundations are included in his
book). At the end of year 2001, I gave an presentation to Indonesian Society
for Lecturers of Industrial Engineering. My presentation was actually
addressed to industrial maintenance problems, and I included also some SD
models. And what I have got? A lot of critics and cynism -although I could
survive-, since I used SD (later I know almost everybody in that room of
the attendes are people grew up in Operating Research study. I am the only
neutrale one in that room, since my background is Aerospace).

Then I know since that time, I need to pull together people in Indonesia
(and/or ASEAN countries) to explore more on SD, and hope that they later can
prove its power and benefits. Also to encourage young generations to learn
and explore this knowledge.

I have to point out that I believe that SD can play an important role in
recovering and developing of our economic and especially building
sustainability growth. That is why from my humble position and place, I
would like offer my voluentary to
1. Preparing an SD chapter in Indonesia & ASEAN region
2. Proposing Indonesian as a host for 2003 SD Conference

I am sure that you all have many things to offer to this regions, and the
problems in this regions are very complex that you can not miss them in your
SD models.

My best regards
Enda D. Layuk Allo
From: "Enda D. Layuk Allo" <cit@ph.edu>
Dept. of Industrial Engineering
Universitas Pelita Harapan, Karawaci
Indonesia

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